Metagame np: PU Stage 8 - Bounce (New Drops Post #24)

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Specs

Getting in your own way
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:SS/Espeon:
Gm, PU is holding a suspect for Espeon! Info about why and how to participate can be found below

The council has discussed Espeon's affect on the meta game and feel that it is deserving of taking a look at in this manner. We've also seen a good amount of support for taking a look at it from our community. I would like to say that not every member of the council feels it is broken or unhealthy enough to where they would vote ban, but either way this feels like the right course of action as to not ignore a good amount of support for this decision.

While not being the hardest hitting thing in the tier, Espeon's Choice Specs sets dent hard resists such as Togedemaru, Klinklang, Ferroseed, and Aggron with either coverage options or abusing the fact that a majority of them lack some sort of reliable recovery. This makes their sequences vs it over the course of games quite awkward, or sets up very punishing 50/50s between Trick or a hard hitting attack like Shadow Ball.

Set diversity is also on Espeons side! Ferroseed does very well against Choiced sets if it gets turns right, however bulky CM sets use it as set up food and the game can potentially snowball from there. It has a very similar match up vs SpDef Togedemaru, which is otherwise a very solid answer. Fast CM sets also can run rampant, forcing one switch and setting up to be able to abuse its coverage better then Specs sets. These other sets at least in my opinion aren't as good as Specs, however they do influence what you use in preparation for Espeon, and how you generally deal with it in game.

Espeon isn't unbeatable, offensive answers have naturally gotten better since its introduction to the tier. Ninjask dropped alongside it, and it threatens an OKO every time it is in vs Espeon, Cincinno is naturally faster and threatens to KO, Whimsicott threats it hard, Ribombee does decent against it just needing some chip to KO at +1, Sneasel skyrocketed in viability being a decent defensive answer and a great offensive answer. These are all at the very least good Pokemon in the tier too, that don't require much at all to throw on teams, so there are options for checking Espeon. Is this enough for you to keep it in the tier? That's for you to decide!

GXEminimum games
7950
79.249
79.448
79.647
79.846
8045
80.244
80.443
80.642
80.841
8140
81.239
81.438
81.637
81.836
8235
82.234
82.433
82.632
82.831
8330

We've decided to change up the system we use for reqs to follow other tiers methods. This feels like a better system, as if you consistently win you shouldn't have to play as many games. This should feel like less of an overall grind

The prefix to use is "PU8E" eg. My alt I'd register could be PU8E Specs, and that would be the account I use for reqs. All battles must be played on the GEn 8 PU Pokemon Showdown ladder. Once the alt identification thread is up and you qualify, you can post your proof of qualification there. Please don't post it in this thread!

The suspect will end on Sunday, March 6th at 7pm GMT -5

I believe that covers it all, wishing you all the best of luck and I trust you all to make the best decision possible (whatever that may be)!

Gonna tag Kris and Marty here to announce it on the PU Ladder, thank you vm as always!
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
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PUPL Champion
:ss/espeon:

Choiced (Espeon) @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot / Trick / Psyshock

Defensive (Espeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Toxic
- Wish
- Protect / Morning Sun / Reflect

Bulky Calm Mind (Espeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic / Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Morning Sun

Offensive Calm Mind (Espeon) @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball / Grass Knot / Morning Sun

Curse (Espeon) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Curse
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam / Calm Mind
- Morning Sun

Speedran reqs today just to get it out of the way. Honestly, I'm not quite sure how to vote here.

I think offensive sets are quite manageable, especially with recent shifts allowing for both defensive and offensive counterplay to be splashable. Defensively, Steels are still common and viable, and most Steels can adequately switch into Espeon at least once and threaten it out. There's a Steel on practically every team, and if you're not running a Steel, you're running something that can switch into the same things most Steels would switch into (e.g Audino, Wishiwashi). Combined with that, SpD midgrounds like Gigalith, Audino, and Eldegoss have been popping up more (at least from my perspective) that can form cores with a counter like Togedemaru to stifle most sets from making progress, particularly the common Choice Specs set. Playing against Choice Specs Espeon with a core like this is pretty easy; you hard in the thing you don't mind being Tricked almost every time to scout for Trick, and if it Tricks you, you still have a solid switch-in in the back to pester Espeon. None of these cores are very difficult to use or require niche mons unless the player desires to. Some cores that can annoy Espeon include GigaSeed, ScrafMaru, Audino + a Steel, and AromaWashi. Apart from the last core, I have seen these cores quite a bit, and they seem to do well against Choice Specs Espeon. Calm Mind sets breakthrough these cores on paper, but in practice, they kinda falter. Offensive Calm Mind sets have to make do with an 8 PP recovery move that gets restricted by Sand, in which case it gets PP stalled by anything with a move that has more than 8 PP and can do 40ish damage consistently (read: anything with Knock that isn't Scrafty), or it's running another coverage move, in which case you can pivot into offensive counterplay with something like Togedemaru. Bulky Calm Mind sets suffer from the same PP issue, but trades the power of Offensive CM for some bulk, which makes it less threatening in the short term, and therefore easier to deal with as long as you play well. Offensively, you have a ton of faster mons that can abuse its lack of bulk. Specs went through the most viable options in the OP above me, but there are a decent amount of offensive Dark-types, like Absol and Morpeko, that can dissuade Espeon from clicking its main STAB and giving them a free turn. Granted, these Pokemon also die to a small breeze, but they still make Espeon think twice before clicking Psychic. Between these options, I believe offensive Espeon sets to be unproblematic and not banworthy.

So what makes me on the fence? It's the defensive set, which is absurdly annoying to face and prep for. Prep sounds easy enough, just slap on a Palossand or a Runerigus on your team and call it a day. However, compared to the time Xatu was in the tier and this was your way of getting Stealth Rock up, things have changed. Firstly, an increase of Water-type breakers like Specs Jellicent makes a bulky Water mandatory when paired with Palossand or Runerigus, which doesn't sound that bad, but in the long term. can leave you weak to threats you otherwise would be fine against if you just used a Gigalith. Secondly, Rockers that beat Espeon don't do a whole ton outside of beating Espeon, considering the stuff they switched into during Xatu meta, like Lycanroc and Arechops, have fallen off or are countered better by more splashable mons, while mons that look like they can be switched into, like Gallade and Scyther, have easier ways around them. Finally, the tier has shifted to a more balance-oriented playstyle. This means that the main ways of making progress are either powerful nukes (which the tier kinda lacks right now and can be matchup fishy) or passive chip damage like hazards and status. When Xatu was in the tier, it was easier to get away with a lack of hazards on the opponent's side because you were more likely to have a powerful breaker, or you could abuse the (much more viable when compared to now) playstyle known as VoltTurn. This does not mean hazards were not impactful during that meta, but it was easier to get away with not having hazards on the opponent's side. In the current meta, however, chip damage is a more prominent way of making progress, and denying hazards with Espeon is more of a big deal than in previous metas. I feel this denial of hazards, one of the main ways of making progress in the tier currently, unless you use a specific Rocker, is the most warping thing in the tier right now because it not only changes your prep but also heavily centers games around it if you're not running a Rocker that beats it.

This is why I'm on the fence: despite offensive Espeon being manageable, defensive Espeon feels very warping, annoying, and centralizing, both in the builder and in practice. My question right now would be, "Is defensive Espeon too warping to warrant it in the tier?". Right now, I'm leaning towards do not ban because I'm satisfied with the status quo right now (barring Gallade, seriously that thing is not okay), and if I had to choose, I would rather not shake up the tier with a ban I'm not 100% sure about. Still, there are two weeks until voting goes up, so that's plenty of time for me to figure things out and decide whether or not I want it gone. As someone on the fence, I'm open to hearing arguments from both sides.

Thanks for reading!
 
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During my suspect laddering I haven't really found Espeon to be incredibly overbearing or too powerful. However, I also haven't played PU in quite some time, so if people want to ban Espeon on the premises of being a teambuilder problem that's understandable.
1645422903840.png1645422938925.png1645422965147.png1645423013693.png1645423053798.png
The team used was built by Skankovich many months ago and still served quite well. There were many natural checks and counterplay to Espeon used on the team, and while some of them are more niche, if you replace them with their meta counterparts the result would've remained similar. The team did not have any means to revenge kill Specs or CM sets and relied mostly on pivoting + defensive backbone to handle those sets. I've found that in practice Espeon really didn't have many opportunities to come in, with the only Pokemon it can really come in on is Weezing, which takes big damage from Sludge Bomb and risks a poison. Even when Espeon had optimal pivoting support or openings, it was still difficult for the opposing Espeon to break effectively.

While using offensive Espeon, it has felt pretty underwhelming. Even on ladder, many teams were structured in a way that really hinders Espeon's potential. In particular, bulky cores utilizing Gigalith/Steel, Audino, Eldegoss, and just generally any bulky steel + dark/special wall were very annoying to deal with. During my battles I used Trick on my Espeon to try and alleviate the issue, but it really didn't fix much problems. It was still hard to position, fragile, wasn't able to break past its checks, and just generally felt a lot weaker to use. That is also not factoring in offensive counterplay, which was especially prominent on ladder. Foes such as Ninjask, Sneasel Cinccino, Ribombee, Scarfers, and offensive Darks such as Absol were all very common and limited my ability to break and make progress. Not to mention passive chip damage in the form of hazards, weather, and the ocassional status.

Defensive Espeon has felt like the most consistent set so far, though it hasn't possessed any broken traits in my eyes. I've found that in practice it can be pressured quite easily into situations where it's forced into Wish/Protect cycles, which is quite abuseable. This can especially be seen when it switches into a rocker and ends up being forced to recover immediately after. The loss of speed also grants many Pokemon new access to revenge kill and force it out, while its damage output also isn't the most amazing.

This is not to say Espeon is a bad mon or anything, as it can be very effective in the right situations and certainly needs to be respected. As of right now I am leaning no ban.
 

Kazeiyuu

formerly Be Like Bisharp
1645555178917.png

I've been using Specs Espeon during the whole run and in my opinion this mon is just broken.
:espeon::silvally-dark::togedemaru::regirock::jellicent::ribombee:
Espeon is both an excellent wallbreaker, a very good win condition thanks to its speed tier and a more than correct support thanks to its access to Magic Bounce.

Espeon Specs is probably the most dangerous wallbreaker in the tier, putting pressure on opposing Steel Pokémon and giving Pokémon like Quiver Dance Ribombee an easy win. Even Pokémon that can come on the Specs set like Ferroseed or SpD Togedemaru don't appreciate getting Trick. These same Pokémon do not win the duel against the more defensive variants of the Pokemon.

And even if it has offensive checks like Sneasel, you can simply switch to a response in order to come back and put pressure with Espeon later.

In my opinion the Pokemon is absolutely not healthy for the meta, and as a result I'm voting ban.
 
Just got reqs and so I'll share some thoughts, overall I'm a little on-the-fence. The speed tier and power make the specs set threatening, but as we were already prepping for the likes of Articuno-G nothing new is required for fatter teams in terms of defensive counterplay. It's more of an issue for offensive teams imo, where Espeon will likely outspeed at least 4/5 mons, but it's still nothing particularly outlandish. It's very much dependent on its speed, playing aggressively and predicting correctly in a way that comes out as relatively manageable.

Defensive sets are where I'm a little more worried. I was running a team with phys def reflect Espeon for reqs and its ability to stonewall near enough all rock setters facilitates some really scary mons. I think when people realise Glastrier isn't worth the slot and start exploring Espeon with other rock-weak breakers the potential issue will become more apparent. I'm sure we all know building is already stretched thin across the variety of prominent threats in the tier right now, but what if you had to consider Zard could running specs instead of boots? If Scyther could more feasibly run Eviolite, Sharp Beak or Band? If Vikavolt was running LO or Specs? If Turtonator can suddenly hit your Gigalith for 90 with a +2 LO Focus Blast? If Magmortar can have a vest or LO? If sturdy smash Carracosta and Crustle can have a boosting item or power herb?

One one hand I have really enjoyed the ability to build with funky sets like these, but I'm aware that if some of them become popular (some have the potential to while others do not) it's just another offensive threat to prepare for at building stage. Espeon supports offensive mons more than it does defensive mons - offensive mons value the item slot free of boots much more. I have seen some Espeon stall but it feels like it gives less value to that playstyle, as removal isn't so hard to fit and you're usually more worried about spikers, who Espeon doesn't deal so well with. It's much more of a boon to balance squads imo, who can abuse rock-weak breakers in their offensive slots thanks to it.

So I'm not sure- I do like this current meta, but I'm afraid of what might pop up along the line thanks to Espeon's presence. Looking forward to reading everyone's contributions and making my mind up! :heart:

Finally I'll plug my reqs team! It's the most solid team I've built in a long while, helping me get reqs in the minimum number of games with only 2 losses.

:Espeon::Scyther::Wishiwashi::Stunfisk-Galar::Flapple::Weezing:

It's basically a fat ol' balance team with a voltturn core of Eviolite Scyther and Wishiwashi. Eviolite Scyther has an unprecedented level of bulk, power and speed for PU, eating hits for days while also outspeeding and OHKOing stuff and breaking own checks with Knock + U-turn. Flapple breaks everything else but also offers really strong priority in Sucker Punch, alleviating the slowness of the team a little and also 1hkoing silvally-ghost in a pinch, who is otherwise annoying. The rest form a defensive backbone, with opportunities for progress through Weezing's tspikes and Wishi's U-turn, and reflect on Espeon helps quell otherwise troubling mons that come in on it like Absol, Aggron or Perrserker.

The general route games go is pivoting between Espeon, Scyther and Wishi while setting up spikes and forcing removal with Weezing, until eventually you have an opportunity for Flapple to come in and tear a hole so Scyther can unravel the team from there. Have fun with it and good luck with reqs all!
 
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Alrighty, I just got the requirements and just made a new account on Smogon because something happened to my old one. So I was looking through the tiers and saw Espeon was being tested for a ban. Being an avid Pu enjoyer I naturally found this fairly interesting. My first thought was to when I last rose in rank in the tier about a few months ago. Espeon wasn't that overbearing from what I remembered so I went in with the same exact team I used then. On my laddering climb I noticed that Espeon was on a lot more teams than back then and that my old team didn't cut it anymore.

I encountered two categories of Espeon sets. The defensive sets were one category. The defensive reflect setters and defensive wish passers. I wasn't too impressed with these sets. For me, I always run a specially defensive silvally fairy as a special counter and this set was absolutely curb stomped by this set. Even an uninvested multi-attack 0 Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 187-222 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Does a ton of damage to the most common sets. Furthermore, these sets can't do too much about Aggron which I ran on my team, but this applies to most steels and stronger rock setters. The wish passer was even worse than the reflect set because it didn't have anything to soften the blows. Basically I found the defensive sets easily checked by specially defensive Silvally fairy and bulky Aggron with speed investment. (It had speed investment to outspeed fast glastrier.) Furthermore, different Pokémon that weren't resists, such as Gigalith, and Audino, can beat this set fairly easily. In addition, despite the name defensive they do tend to get taken down easily because by nature Espeon isn't that bulky.

Now onto the offensive espeon sets. There were two which I encountered. One set was the offensive calm minder, and this was where Silvally, fairy handled it once again. It wasn't easy to switch in on an attack, but getting in on a calm mind allowed me to remove the Espeon fairly easily. Something ended up being weakened heavily, but I handled it. The set that tripped me up the most though and which I think was the best was the choice specs set. Now this thing has immediate power, almost nothing other than a dark predict could switch into it and even then it could out predict with a dazzling gleam and gut the dark type. Espeon is naturally incredibly speedy and as such it has the power to hit incredibly hard. The issue with this Espeon is after a prediction it invites in dangerous pokemon/darks. Inviting in the dangerous dragon dance Scrafty or Absol aren't pokemon you want to give a turn of setup. Or after a ko inviting in banded Aggron for a head smash isn't it.

So now onto my Espeon. I used a scarfed Espeon, and I haven't seen anyone on the ladder try this. It is really solid. It outspeeds common Ninjask without a boost and ohkoes it with psychic. In addition, it can switch in on opposing Espeons resisted moves and outspeed and ko with a shadow ball. The main strength of this set was its surprise factor.

Now onto my team that I used for this laddering. I used a team that was pretty solid for me. I had a physically defensive Weezing with a rocky helmet to stop fighting types and punish Scyther and Cinccino. Togedemaru's u-turn was also something this hurt. I had an Aggron whose head smashes hit like a truck. This allowed for a fairly easy rock setup. The most interesting part of my team was a Vanilluxe which had choice specs. This thing hit so incredibly hard that resists got worn down fairly quickly and it usually had the coverage to hit something effectively and it was surprisingly fast. I had my scarfed Espeon as explained above. My specially defensive Silvally-Fairy and my taunt spamming toxic stalling physically defensive Jellicent also made an appearance.

In the end, Espeon is good, but I do not consider it broken. It is stopped easily and can be handled through good play. It is by no means bad though.

https://pokepast.es/f86346f0293f1281
 

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I am playing PU for over a month now. imo, espeon should be never allowed in pu in the first place. Defensively, it has no good check. pu seriously lack good special wall or steel type. Max sp def audino can't check it without protect and if rocks are up or it got critted/sp dropped then you have to pick your sack. togedemaru can check it but it is one shadow ball sp def drop away from fainting. And both of its check can be easily crippled by trick. And if opponent can check it by sending right wall then it means that it cannot threatened your team, so you can switch out without much fear( opponent has to use wish to check it next time). Only good dark type in tier i.e., scarfty gets ohko by d gleem. And if it is the calm mind varient, you need different set of check( stored power variant can even beat quagsire).
offsenively, there are handful of mon in pu wihich is faster than espeon and non of them can switch in against espeon. Most of pokemons which pose threat to espeon are not very common like ninjask, jolt and cincinoo because they have their own issue.
The biggest issue with espeon is that it is very frail so it can not switch in very freely. But you can play around it by good prediction and by use of volt/turn/teleport.
And I barely mention about anything about its non spec sets.
 

gum

for the better
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PU Leader
i don't believe espeon to be too much for the tier; offensive sets are extremely threatening but they're also pretty prediction reliant as its coverage options aren't like, that deadly most of the time and locking yourself into anything can be very risky. it's very easy to build in a way that limits how much espeon gets to do, as outside of defensive steels, offensive mons like lycanroc, ninjask, glastrier, and sneasel (which can also switch into a locked espeon btw) have an easy time forcing it out, while also being very threatening, or, in ninjask's case, generating momentum. gigalith and audino aren't the best answers to it but they also make for fine defensive checks!

i think the most unhealthy aspect about espeon is its access to trick. being able to incapacitate one of its answers usually allows 1 of its teammates to achieve much more, but that's still not enough to convince me to vote ban. i said this already but its coverage is something you can play around, which also makes trick kinda less effective at time since your opponent isn't always forced to go into their aggron, togedemaru, or whatever else they have. an espeon without a boosting item is also much weaker and doesn't force out as much, which means tricking still comes with a cost, but at least it's a way to ensure you always get value out of your espeon

non-specs offensive sets aren't nearly as threatening and can also be dealt with fine with most special walls, including calm mind variants. defensive calm mind isn't as offensively threatening and it's usually possible to pressure it well enough before it gets out of control, and finally i think that defensive espeon is a very healthy set in a tier lacking reliable entry hazards removal options. it does have a good matchup vs most setters but it's also extremely passive, not that bulky, and mandates a very sturdy defensive core in the back to support it

espeon just hasn't felt unfair or too much when playing games, whether it was an offensive variant or a defensive one and i like the impact it's had on building tbh, so i'll be voting dnb!!
 

As usual, made a video discussing my thoughts before I make my vote.
Leaning Ban. I personally didn't have many issues playing against Espy on the ladder, but was able to use it quite effectively for nearly 50 games.
Specs is just an insane wallbreaker and while there is defensive and offensive counterplay, they seem limited and tools like Trick/CM/Psyshock allow it to muscle past the defensive answers as well.

Defensive sets warp the hazard game in PU to an extent that it might be too much especially in a tier thats driven by hazards, from there ofc this allows it to enable mons like scyther/magmortar/ninjask etc even moreso.

More details in the video ofc, overall extremely strong wallbreaker which also warps the in-game hazard game just seems to push it over the edge imo but I can also the DNB side as well. I'm assuming it will be a close vote.
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
PUPL Champion
Moderately surprised by the ban decision. I felt both PS room and this forum were leaning DNB as a whole, and I counted fewer ban voters than do not ban voters from what I saw. A bit disappointed that no council members or prominent PU players commented on the suspect in this thread (outside of gum, who I think is retired), but I guess they either didn't want to influence the decision too much or they were busy with other stuff. Hopefully, the tier develops positively from here!

Anyway, I'm here to talk about what I believe the next (and hopefully last of this generation) suspect test should be on.

:ss/gallade:
Gallade @ Muscle Band
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off / Thunder Punch / Leaf Blade

I've talked about Gallade before here right after the Drampa ban, where I felt that it was too much for the tier, and difficult to deal with defensively. Over the last 4 months, my opinion of Gallade has mellowed a bit, but I still do not believe it is a positive presence in the tier, and I have found it too good at breaking through defensive cores and picking off chipped offensive counterplay with Shadow Sneak.

First, I'd lack to focus on its lack of defensive counterplay. Not much doesn't take super-effective damage from both of its STABs + possible coverage options. Below is a wall of calcs that shows Gallade's odds versus a myriad of defensive options in the tier. There are a lot of them, open at your own risk.

Note: this assumes Rocks are up (unless switch-in has a set with Boots or is Hattrem) and Gallade is forcing a switch. If this is unrealistic to you, please tell me.

A-Ranks

:charizard: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 236-278 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 63-75 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO (this shows that defensive Zard dies with minimal chip)

:jellicent: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Jellicent: 226-266 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Jellicent: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (if Cursed Body procs then it dies after Rocks if Colbur, if it doesn't then it dies even if it's Boots)

:mesprit: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Colbur Berry Mesprit: 119-141 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (switches in once, dies on next switch-in)

:sandaconda: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Sandaconda: 151-178 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (roll in your favor, much more favorable if Spikes are up, odds for Lefties are 5% but they're not that common on SR sets)

:silvally-ghost: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ghost: 141-166 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ghost: 108-128 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can come in once with Rocks up if need be, but dies if Spikes are up or 2 turns of Sand chip was taken)

:quagsire: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO (nice)
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 368-436 (93.4 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (more consistent, but not always run)

:silvally-fairy: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Silvally-Fairy: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (only defensive A-Rank that can come in more than once, but lacks recovery outside of cursed RestTalk sets)

B-Ranks

:uxie: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Uxie: 75-89 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 100-118 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 68-80 (19.2 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO (defensive sets can only come in once, Kee Berry sets make mince meat of Gallade unless unlucky crit)

:aromatisse: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 118-141 (29 - 34.7%) -- 8.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 177-208 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (PhyDef is probably the best MB Gallade counter in the tier, SpDef is a roll in your favor, PhyDef can still lose to a ZHB flinch)

:cofagrigus: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Cofagrigus: 69-82 (22.2 - 26.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off vs. 212 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 92-110 (29.6 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off vs. +2 212 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 46-56 (14.8 - 18%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 212 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus on a critical hit: 114-135 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Gallade wins if it gets a Psycho Cut crit on the last turn/ZHB flinch, loses otherwise, you always live one Shadow Ball so you can stay in if need be)

:druddigon: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 178-210 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (you "win", and by that you mean you take it out but take 59% in return)

:palossand: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Palossand: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Colbur Berry Palossand: 87-103 (23.2 - 27.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Palossand: 108-127 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Palossand: 174-206 (46.5 - 55%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Palossand: 108-127 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Leaf Blade is a roll in your favor unless Lefties, Knock Off + ZHB has a very small chance to hax Colbur, bigger chance to hax non-Colbur)

:rotom: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 128-152 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed OHKO (dies if Rocks are up, has a very small chance to live if they aren't)

:tangela: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 102-120 (30.5 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (decent counter, can stall out CC PP with this + a Ghost-type and 50/50s, just don't get Knocked)

:clefairy: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 100-118 (29 - 34.3%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 114-135 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 169-201 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO (if you get flinched or Knocked, you're screwed, otherwise a niche but solid pick, also useful to show when the power of ZHB is useful over Psycho Cut avoiding contact punishing stuff like Rocky Helmet)

:runerigus: Calcs are same as Cofagrigus except
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 128-152 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Leaf Blade vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 66-78 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Leaf Blade vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 66-78 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (better hope Leaf Blade doesn't crit, which it has a 1/3 chance to do, and increases if you click Rest on the third turn)

C-Ranks

:alcremie: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alcremie: 133-157 (39.8 - 47%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alcremie on a critical hit: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ZHB is a roll not in your favor, Psycho Cut can theoretically fish for the double crit but Alcremie wins otherwise)

:altaria: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Altaria: 157-186 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Altaria: 136-162 (38.4 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (ZHB sorta beats it in the sense that Altaria is forced to Roost or else it gets too low, so you can eventually get the flinch, but it's unreliable, Psycho Cut can't break it)

:appletun: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Appletun: 192-226 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO (was surprised by this one, anything that isn't max/max loses btw)

:carbink: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Carbink: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (never seen a PhyDef Carbink, theoretically it switches in and does over half with Body Press if Gallade is -2 or Toxics it, but lacks reliable recovery)

:claydol: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Claydol: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Colbur Berry Claydol: 88-104 (27.1 - 32%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Claydol: 116-138 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Leaf Blade beats it, Claydol can switch into Knock Off once but not again)

:eldegoss: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eldegoss: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eldegoss: 103-123 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO (worse Tangela but this + a Fighting resist with recovery can force Gallade to predict properly, non-Boots gets outdamaged by Rocks + Psycho Cut)

:hattrem: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Eviolite Hattrem: 158-188 (49.6 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (very, very high chance for Gallade to win)

:pyukumuku: 252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 138-163 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 73% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Muscle Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 138-163 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO (another solid counter, but only used on some stalls + niche balances)

I believe I was through with these calcs. If you think I'm missing anything, tell me.

You can see a consistent pattern with these calcs. The more solid switch-ins are only seen below B+ Rank, and even then, they can lose to coverage (Palossand) or an unlucky ZHB flinch (PhyDef Aromatisse). Of course, Gallade cannot run every single coverage move I calced for, and an important aspect about Gallade is that it has to choose the proper 4th move to not get walled by a specific threat; however, in a tier where teambuilding can be constrained because of the sheer amount of things you need to prepare for, I argue that it is difficult to deal with Gallade unless you have scouted its 4th move, and expecting teams to stack defensive counterplay to Leaf Blade Gallade AND Knock Off Gallade isn't 100% realistic. It's not that difficult to get Gallade into situations like the above either. This tier isn't exactly infested with bulky pivots, but Pokemon like Togedemaru, Wishiwashi, and Ninjask are common enough that giving Gallade a free turn isn't difficult.

Secondly, I'd like to mention the difficulty of checking it offensively. When Espeon was in the tier, Dark-type breakers like Sneasel and Absol were more popular, and arguably were able to keep Gallade in check due to them being faster and nearly ensuring an OHKO, or at least wearing it down to the point where it was near useless. While Espeon has just been banned, I don't believe it's unreasonable to believe that the tier now has less faster Pokemon that can threaten Gallade properly, and offensive counterplay as a whole seems inadequate. Despite the numerous amount of Pokemon that outspeed Gallade, its decent special bulk means it lives even a Ribombee Moonblast from full. A resistance to Stealth Rock makes it difficult to wear down as well, which means wearing down Gallade mainly comes from Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and chip damage from aspects that punish contact moves. Combined with priority that forces offensive checks to stay above Shadow Sneak range, this constrains the amount of offensive counterplay than Gallade.

Something I'd like to point out is that being a slow but powerful breaker, it's not exactly slow enough that our other slow but powerful breakers can force it out, which keeps our other breakers balanced. Centiskorch, Perserrker, Choice Specs Jellicent...even with max investment, all of these Pokemon fail to outspeed Gallade. The most common slow but powerful breakers that outspeed Gallade are Sawk and Magmortar, the former of which faces direct competition with Gallade and is seeing lower usage because of that, and the latter of which isn't exactly a team's first Fire-type choice. This means that teams will often lack a powerful breaker that can force out Gallade, and have to rely even more on chipping it into Moonblast range or something.

Thirdly, the data can back up how powerful Gallade is. In PUWC, it saw decent usage (~10%), but a stunningly high 64% win rate (16/25 won, I had to figure this out myself since usage stats weren't updated). In PU Circuit Playoffs, while it saw similar usage, it saw a much lower winrate at 44.44% (4/9 won). While this may seem odd, especially considering that most of Gallade's "answers" saw little to no usage in the tour, this is explained by a plurality of Gallades being Choice Scarf/Band, which are the worse sets imo; non-Choice item Gallade saw a 100% win rate. Here are just a couple replays that show how devastating non-Choice locked Gallade can be, tearing through otherwise solid teams. Usually, to counter the rise of a popular breaker, its defensive counterplay would equally rise. However, in both tournaments, outside of Sandaconda (which saw poor winrates in both tours), no Gallade switch-in reached above or equal usage to Gallade, with the closest mon in usage being Uxie (66.67% winrate in PUWC, 50% winrate in Circuit Playoffs), and even then it saw only about half usage in both tours. To me, this shows how hard to fit Gallade's standard defensive counterplay is.

Finally, Gallade's set diversity makes it even more difficult to deal with. Most of what I talked about above was using the Muscle Band set, which I have the most experience with and is a powerful breaker in its own right. However, I neglected to mention Swords Dance sets, which are almost equally powerful and can flip standard counterplay on its head. Answers to the Muscle Band set, like Palossand and PhyDef Aromatisse, get completely washed at +2 backed by a Life Orb, Lum Berry to negate status, or even a Roseli Berry to laugh in the face of Moonblasts. Choice Scarf sets, while not good imo, also have their place in the meta. Powerful Close Combats, combined with Knock Off, Trick, and a STAB that punishes the tier's most common Fighting resist in Weezing, make it annoying to deal with on paper (in practice...not so much). This set diversity, combined with the ability for sets like Muscle Band and Lum Berry SD to bluff other sets, means that dealing with Gallade can often mean either stacking switch-ins to each set or just hoping you don't load into it and can revenge kill it with faster stuff. As I've explained, I do not find both to be feasible and consistent.

Overall, I think Gallade is way too much for the tier. Yes, it does have flaws, such as its vulnerability to non-Stealth Rock hazards, middling Speed tier, and lacking defensive utility, but imo these do not do enough to make Gallade balanced. Between its frankly obscene breaking power, set diversity, ability to beat all but its best answers with a bit of luck or the right coverage, and difficulty to revenge kill, I think we should move to suspect Gallade as soon as possible. However, I understand if the council does not consider this a priority. PU Open is a bit more than 2 weeks away, and the Espeon suspect has just ended. It's reasonable to not want to jump to the next suspect immediately after one has ended. Regardless, I would 100% support a Gallade suspect.

As a final question, what are everyone's thoughts on Gallade? I've seen rumblings on it being too much on PS room, but I would love to hear from players better than me that are more experienced with the tournament scene.

Thanks for reading!
 
Last edited:

ishtar

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
PU Leader
I thought I'd put in my 2 cents on the topic of Gallade. Firstly I believe post Espeon meta is too new to adequately quality how much different it is after the latest ban, but w the limited time I've had to play since then, there's a few patterns that become prevalent, while most of them are rather obvious developments.

Spike stacking is once again more reliable, and its impossible to deny how some of the balance breakers in the tier take advantage of this. With that being said, I still believe our current meta resembles more Espeon meta than Tsareena meta and find very little use in discussing how broken Gallade was back then. What does that mean for PU now? It means that the nature of the tier still lends itself to more offensive and faster archetypes, or at least BO stand in similar viability to balance builds relying on ur usual Ferro/Giga/Aud, etc.

I don't agree with the above post pointing towards a much sluggier meta that could naturally struggle to fit in offensive and defensive checks to Gallade. If anything, Espeon in a lot of teams has simply been changed to Guno which is obviously a much less reliable and exploitable breaker. Guno in itself, and many more faster threats like Arch, Silv formes, Bee, etc. allow for revenge killers such as Sneasel, Jask, Lycan to continue being very viable options, with the added bonus of some of these being very viable balance breakers in their own right.

While I believe that Gallade was definitely worth looking at during Tsareena meta, I really struggle to see it being more than a scary balance breaker in our current one, while not making the playstyle unviable (I think its actually quite similar to Magmortar in that sense and I also obviously dont find that mon to be problematic either).

Lastly I wanna say that I didn't believe Gallade was even worth talking about last meta in terms of it being a problematic threat and I'm surprised I didn't catch any of these conversations regarding it. I also totally understand feeling somewhat worried about Gallade currently, but while the nature of the tier might help it more now, I just don't see it becoming the possibly overwhelming offensive presence it once was back when Big T wouldn't let you play the game (Now hopefully im not wrong and shifts don't own us kek).

Ty for reading, gobobye!!!
 

Specs

Getting in your own way
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
UUPL Champion
Tier shifts are here!

Hitmontop moved from PU to NU

Comfey moved from NU to PU
Garbodor moved from NU to PU

I'll edit my thoughts later today, what do you all think? Wasn't expecting Top to rise
 

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
quick thoughts on the new drops:
:ss/comfey:
Comfey @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure / Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam / Draining Kiss
- Toxic
- Defog
- Synthesis

i'll never say no to more removal in a tier that desperately needs it, especially something with recovery and natural cure. being able to come in on stuff like conda / regirock / def aggron and soak up attacks/glare/tox is rly sweet. also check scrafty while doing this? cool. it's not perfect but i am happy we got this mon.

0 Atk Sandaconda Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey: 88-105 (28.7 - 34.3%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Regirock Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey: 110-135 (35.9 - 44.1%) -- approx. 3HKO
0 Atk Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey: 135-160 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey: 132-156 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scrafty Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey: 172-204 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Comfey @ Kee Berry
Ability: Triage
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Def / 68 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Aromatherapy
- Synthesis
Comfey @ Kee Berry
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power
- Rest

these kind of sets look sorta fun. i think i'd rather use uxie/mesprit instead though. they do struggle substantially with the other mon that just dropped however in addition to a few other common threats so i doubt we'll see them too much in practice but there's potential here.

other comfey options include running a spdef aroma tox set to wall most zard + fog + check scrafty, it has an impressive spdef stat but i don't see this rly taking off in practice. maybe a choice set could work, it's relatively fast / has u-turn to pivot on incoming steels; however, its middling special attack stat and lack of viable coverage leaves a lot to be desired.

:ss/garbodor:
Garbodor @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Gunk Shot
- Stomping Tantrum
- Pain Split

:worrywhirl: this mon might be a little annoying. we lack solid removal, especially any that can switch into this. we're limited to defensive sandslash-k and claydol rly, both of which are pretty underwhelming. i see a lot more mons opting for hdb in this meta than they did previously. very hard to tell from the limited experience i have in the updated meta. it's cool that nu are letting us have some of our mons back though!

:ss/hitmontop::ss/torkoal:
thank god higher tiers took mons i really don't care about at all this time phew.

winners
:sandslash::claydol::perrserker::gigalith:
sandslash & claydol both move up the pecking order in terms of removal thanks to already doing well vs our current setters but also against garbodor. claydol will probably still be garbage as is its eternal fate but it definitely improves as a result of this drop. perrserker, especially sub sd variants appreciate the ability to easily switch into comfey and abuse its passivity and inability to damage it whatsoever. gigalith being able to prevent comfey from clicking synthesis without concern is nice, as it also switches into garbodor pretty nicely, and appreciates hitmontop being gone. i can't see gigalith falling off in usage whatsoever as a result of these shifts.

losers
:scrafty::gallade::sawk::whimsicott::lurantis::eldegoss:
fighting types obviously don't like these two especially comfey! comfey walls all 3 except for like cb pjab from sawk but still forces it out with priority draining kiss after minimal chip, and is otherwise a very solid fighting type check. grass type removal doesn't appreciate garbodor obviously, lurantis especially as it doesn't get through this mon at all when it relies on its offensive prowess to set itself apart. specs whimsicott will prob be forced to go back to running psychic more often, defensive sets will struggle immensely though. eldegoss was always garbage but it's even worse now :(
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
PUPL Champion
Didn't expect a new survey, nice to see tier leaders taking action. I think it would be nice to post what I thought about the possible suspects here (for reference, I voted enjoyability a 9 and competitiveness an 8, I really like the tier right now and would only make small adjustments).

593.png

Was very surprised to see this as the first mon on the survey. Personally, I've never struggled with it. Offensive sets are powerful, but at the end of the day, you're relying on a move with 8 PP (or two if you use Hydro Miss and not Scald as the secondary Water move) that's reliant on making sure you take little chip damage in a tier where hazards removal is mediocre and Gigalith is god. Its STAB combo is good on paper, but that doesn't fix the fact that you're working with a mon with base 85 Special Attack, so anything without the BP that a full HP Water Spout has isn't going to cut it. Defensive sets are seen as "warping", but I really don't see the issue with them either. I think it's because it blocks Rapid Spin, but being one of the three viable spinblocker in the tier, it's easy to build a team that can remove hazards versus it. Eldegoss is pretty bad and passive, but Leech + Giga out damages Recover, so eventually you're forced to switch out and let Eldegoss spin. Its disruptive and status spreading capabilities aren't a massive deal either; pretty much every solid team right now has either a cleric, a status absorber, or both, and not having one is just setting yourself up to be worn down quickly. All in all, I fail to see what could make Jellicent banworthy.

475.png

Been very vocal about how unfair this thing is, just read the post I made above detailing how Gallade's defensive counterplay is nearly non-existent. Yeah, Spikes and offensive counterplay still exist, but imo it's not enough to point out the fact that, unless you're running something like Spiritomb, Gallade can easily claim a life every time it gets on the field safely with minimal prediction + support, something very few breakers can claim to do. ZHB flinches can destroy all but the strongests switch-ins as well, and the bulk to fish for this flinch versus mons like Aromatisse and Palossand. SD sets are even more unfair defensively, as the ability to bluff Muscle Band gives Gallade numerous setup opprotunites. If there's anything I really want gone, it's Gallade.

006.png

Zard has always been a good mon (imo it's plagued by inconsistency issues that stop me from using it as often as I would like to), but never banworthy in my eyes. It's just something you gotta respect in builder. It's not very hard to build a team that isn't Zard weak either. I shill Gigalith in every post, but mons like SpDef Jellicent, Audino, Wishwashi, Regirock, SpDef Garbodor, and Archeops are all solid switch-ins...and that's just the mons B+ or better! My point is, you don't have to look very hard to find Zard counterplay, and putting Zard counterplay on your team is easy and clean. It has a ~5% chance to hax past checks with Hurricane confusion, but if that's really an issue, then maybe we should look at other breakers with greater chances to hax past switchins (coughgalladecough).

144-g.png

I really only see Galarcuno beat me when I lazily use Ferroseed as my Steel and think it protects me against all Psychic-types. Unfortunately, it does not, as testified by everyone's favorite Psychic bird. Togedemaru is a much better switch-in to it. Like Zard, I just think this is a mon you gotta respect in builder rather than banworthy, and I think it has issues that limit its power in my eyes. Specs is super strong and all, but the Rocks weakness is legitimately awful and almost mandates extensive hazards removal in order for it to break properly. FS + Roar sets were brought up in the past as potentially banworthy, but I haven't seen that strat since Passimian meta and the consistency of those strats is questionable to begin with. It's pretty easy to prep for and I wouldn't say it's banworthy.

560.png

Don't got much to say here, it's just yet another mon you gotta respect in builder, although it is at least more threatening on paper than the above two. 3 Atks + Rest or even DD can mess up teams that prep for BU with Faries because they die to coverage and you can rarely tell what a Scrafty set is from preview. Luckily, BU sets are still the most popular so teams can get away with slapping Ribombee on teams and calling it a day. I think if non-BU sets start popping up more often and Quagsire usage falls off a cliff, Scrafty might be an issue, but for now, it's fine in the tier.

480.png
481.png

I originally was going to vote no suspect like I did for every mon but Gallade, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized how uninteractive these mons are. Right, I think counterplay boils down to 5 options:

1. Mystical Fire Charizard (loses to Sub)
2. Haze users/phazing
3. Leech Seed + breaker that can at least 2HKO Uxie/Mesprit at +1 (loses to Sub)
4. Disruption such as Taunt or Trick Choice items
5. Brute force

Out of all of these, I think Haze/phazing is the most consistent but also the hardest to fit. The only common Rocker to get and be able to fit a phazing move is Aggron, but it also wants STABs/Quake/Protect/Toxic as well. Poliwrath, Throh, and Drudiggon are also decent phazers, but the former 2 clearly can't work, and the latter loses to Sub variants. Brute force can also work, but it's inconsistent and relies on having a faster than Uxie breaker that can 3HKO at +1 in both defenses without having to rely on Toxic (because they can run Rest). I feel like if you don't have any of these forms of counterplay immediately available, then it's gg shake my hand. The only issue I see is that they're kinda difficult to setup on paper; Kee Berry can be Knocked, while Seed versions rely on niche playstyles in order to succeed. Still, I would support doing something about Stored Power sets, considering how uninteractive they can end up being.

099.png


Kingler is probably the only mon I'd be open to retesting because everything else in PUBL just seems too broken. The lack of initial power compared to its contemporaries means that it needed to set up to become threatening, giving players a chance to abuse its poor bulk/speed. It also had 4MSS, constantly wanting Agility/SD/Knock/Rock Slide/X-Scissor/Ice Beam on top of its STAB so it could cover everything, and not running one of those moves opened the floor to counterplay. It was also banned very quickly after Vaporeon rose, so one could argue that it didn't see enough time to be evaluated properly. Maybe I'm wrong and teams end up having to prep for all possible Kingler variants in order to beat it, but I think it deserves a chance.

I might have trashed on some mons a bit too much, but I fully believe that they deserve their VR spots and popularity in the tier. I just think they're not banworthy (barring Gallade and maybe Stored Power Uxie/Mespirit). An ideal suspect path for me would be Gallade suspect -> Kingler resuspect -> wait for shifts to see if something that beats SP Uxie/Mespirit drops -> possible suspect surrounding SP Uxie/Mespirit.

Thanks for reading!
 

Deleted User 590774

Banned deucer.
Hi, I've started to play PU two weeks ago and only made actual showdown and smogon accounts recently, I'm no PU savant but after doing the survey I feel like making a post about my opinions on the pokemons featured there



593.png

I really don't see how this thing is problematic, sure Water Spout is scary but on a tier where Hazard Stacking and Sandstorm is so popular, staying healthy to fire off those monstrous 150 BP STAB Water Spout is incredibly hard even if you have Clerics/Wish Passers on your team, I don't use Offensive Jelli all that much but I've only managed to fire off exactly one (1) Water Spout at full health, I might be just bad at the game but really, the effort you have to go to get this thing going and keep it healthy makes it not banworthy in my eyes, Water/Ghost is a pretty brutal STAB combination but when one considers that Jellicent only has 85 SPA everything besides Water Spout is suddenly less scary, even with Specs, as for the defensive sets, I guess you could call them overcentralizing but imo, this tier suffers far more without Jellicent than with Jellicent, it's an incredibly good pokemon for most archetypes and it if wasn't here it would enable alot of things, I feel like Sweepers and Wallbreakers having to account for Jelli is more of a good thing than a bad thing, sure it makes Rapid Spin worse cause of how used it is but that's moreso fault of all our spinners being mediocre than anything else, and even then those spinners usually have a way to not be complete sitting ducks to Jelli.



560.png

...G-guys we literally just got a new Fairy pokemon and said Fairy can run either a physically defensive set or a offensive set with priority to deal with DD Scrafty, guys please...

Okay jokes aside, if this thing wasn't problematic before it certainly isn't going to be now, sure 3 Attacks + Rest Scratfy sounds annoying but that's moreso it adapting to the meta rather a new broken set, unless Quagsire suddenly gets yoinked by UU once again and Fairy-Types are suddenly garbage in PU for whatever reason, I can't imagine this thing ever being broken, just respect it on the team builder and you should be fine



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Hey look it's the pokemon I keep underestimating cause I keep forgetting it's not Xatu and it can actually deal damage to things, me being dumb aside I don't see this pokemon being broken either, most specially defensive walls can blanket check it perfectly fine, sure Future Sight is annoying especially a Specs Future Sight but I don't think there's anything unbalanced or uncompetitive about it really, once again just respect it while making your teams, I've heard some people call FS + Phazing problematic but lemme ask one thing

What phazing, what reliable phazing we have in PU to be exact? we literally have two Stored Power sweepers being brought into the spotlight for being too strong despite Roar/Whirlwind being usually the best way to deal with that kind of setup, Future Sight + Phazing will always be an annoying combination to deal with but PU specifically doesn't have enough phazers for G-Cuno to be suspected cause of it


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I haven't used these three enough to have any strong opinions about them, but I can see why anyone would call them problematic



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Yeesh, this thing is damn scary, haven't used it much but Gallade and Gallade alone was the reason why I won some of the matches he was in, he's hard to bring in and has a less than ideal speed stat but this thing HURTS, everytime I brought it in my opponents would end up taking extra time to do their next move and I don't blame them, Close Combat completely demolishes anything that doesn't resist fighting, Zen Headbutt is very powerful on top of having these BS flinches (which made me win a match solely because of them btw) and his fourth moveslot is very customizable cause Gallade wasn't scary enough apparently, Leaf Blade, Knock Off and Shadow Sneak are all very powerful moves that Gallade can abuse, even in the matches I lost, Gallade made an undeniable impact and was never useless, I can understand why someone would vote to not suspect him but if he does get suspected and if he does indeed get banned, it wouldn't surprise me, personally I would wait till the next shift for drops, Doublade would be an incredible answer to Gallade if he drops, however I do not decide when the leaders of the tier make a suspect test or not, so yeah.



As for the PUBL retest...
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Retest Kingler, I have the exact same argument as Heracross2.0 up there as for why Kingler is worth retesting, but I also want to add that, Kingler has the lowest power level of all PUBL mons currently, if PU as of right now is unable to handle Kingler, then there's no reason to test anyone else as they're all clearly stronger, I don't have much more to add to this, thanks for reading.
 
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Vulpix03

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Just to clarify, I think the main reason we included jellicent on the survey was not due to the specs set (which is good) but mainly due to the defensive set and how the Mon as a whole warps the tier. It singlehandedly beats every spinner in a tier that is already lacking in removal and wisp/toxic + taunt in conjunction with its great bulk make it hard to take down.
Whether the "warping" is unhealthy or not is to be decided but we thought it should be included.

Everything else on the survey is pretty self explanatory. Guno, gallade, zard and scrafty have all had their fair share of "pls ban" in the past.

Stored power is something that saw usage in scl; mainly on terrain teams with uxie and swoobat. If you aren't prepared for these mons they can 6-0 on preview, and even though terrain isn't used much anymore we thought it was worth bringing up.


In my opinion the only thing suspect worthy ATM is jelli. Glad others are posting and sharing their opinions and hope to see more of that.
 

gum

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i really don't think jelli is unhealthy at all. the defensive set is not as warping as people make it seem to be, as there's plenty of mons that can at the very least force it out or cripple it, while it just doesn't really answer anything super well? definitely a super great mon but there's plenty of counterplay. as for how it restrains our removal options, i really don't agree that much; a lot of our spinners are just very mediocre mons regardless of jellicent and i heavily doubt that it leaving would make most of them suddenly worth running

i think the tier's fine as is, but i do think scrafty and zard are kinda annoying. the former does what it's always done, which is outlast most of its answers and click knock off until it can win. zard has like 2 and a half consistent answers, with all of them hating toxic other than lanturn (0/10 mon) so it can often just get out of hand. banning it would also mean we'd lose one of our best removal option though, so not ideal

as for publs, i think suspecting one of alolanchu or sceptile would make the most sense, as i think both were banned prematurely (although i'd prefer if we didn't try to bring back anything). terrain is also very bad and there's enough mons that can at the very least offensively check them without being too useless otherwise. i'd probably prefer alolanchu if something had to get suspected, though, as non-terrain sceptile sets could very easily become too much

nothing getting suspected > suspecting publ mons for fun > suspect zard or scrafty > suspect galarcuno > suspect gallade > suspect jelli
 
Hello, first time here. Just wanted to give a moveset for Electivire. It would be:
-Cross Chop
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch
-Thunder Puch

Nature: Jolly
Items: Air Ballon/ Assault Vault
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk/ 4 Def/ 252 Spd


It's just an idea. Plus, in OU, it can survive to a Landorus-T's Earthquake and OHKO after, even with the Intimidate
 
Hello, first time here. Just wanted to give a moveset for Electivire. It would be:
-Cross Chop
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch
-Thunder Puch

Nature: Jolly
Items: Air Ballon/ Assault Vault
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk/ 4 Def/ 252 Spd


It's just an idea. Plus, in OU, it can survive to a Landorus-T's Earthquake and OHKO after, even with the Intimidate
Apparently, :Electivire: is outclassed by the other Electric-types of the meta:

:Togedemaru: has great typing, and is the premier physical Electric-type.

:Rotom: also has a solid typing in Ghost despite being a bit outclassed by :Togedemaru:.

:Jolteon: is an overall decent option, probably the faster in the meta.

:Vikavolt: and :Galvantula: can set Stick Web, the former being stronger and the latter being faster.

:Morpeko: is already outclassed by :Togedemaru:, and both are slightly faster than :Electivire:.

In summary, :Electivire: is not that fast, though you could argue that it has more bulk than its competitors. I think this could be the way to go, despite :Vikavolt: and :Stunfisk: having better Defences and HP. By the way, I think you should provide Replays for Unranked Pokemon showing its strengths.

I hope these counterarguments help you to further elaborate your arguments.

Edit: I forgot to mention that :Electivire: is also outclassed by its pal, :Magmortar:.
 
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Personal opinion.
I think that Articuno-Galar :Articuno-Galar: deserves a suspect-test.

I've never thought that this bird was too problematic, because its two main sets, while being powerful, could be easily dealt with:
- the Choice Specs set makes Guno vulnerable to Stealth Rocks and being choice-locked might be problematic especially for a possible end game.
- the HDB set doesn't provide the same sheer power as the CS one: Future Sight strats + a fighting type in the back are viable, but, without Passimian, they aren't ban-worthy.
That's why I didn't want to ban it when you published the survey.

But I've quite changed my mind: recently I've been seeing some scary Calm Mind and, especially, Agility sets: of course the icing on the cake is Stored Power.
The problem is that Guno might hold different items so you don't have a clear play to make: it might hold Grassy/Electric seed, Leftovers or Weakness Policy.
If you try to Toxic the bird, you might risk a Substitute; if you hit it with a strong attack (generally supereffective) you might activate the WP and, thanks to Agility which increases Stored Power BP even more, you just have to witness the sweep (PU steel types are not so specially defensive: they get wrecked as well).
This mon has also reliable recovery in Recover.
Moreover if you burn the seed, you are protected from Poltergeist and Knock Off gets weakened.
Never forget that you can't even overlook the 2 main sets I exposed before (Guno might have just Stored Power as damaging move, but I would never risk my Scrafty against a possible specs flying type).
So that's all: this is the issue that made me change my mind

I conclude with some final salt in the wound: this mon even gets Freezing Glare, so you might even get a random freeze that destroys all your plans.
 

Chloe

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July Tier Shift Drops!!!!

:araquanid::doublade::guzzlord::inteleon:
Araquanid moved from NU to PU
Doublade moved from NU to PU
Guzzlord moved from NU to PU
Inteleon moved from NU to PU

We'll be holding a quickban vote prior to PUPL Week 2, to determine any Pokemon in need of an immediate quickban (it only looks like Inteleon for now); however, I am very happy that we've gotten Doublade. What are all of your opinions on these drops? I look forward to seeing what everyone thinks!
 
Araquanid I think will be OK. It’s slow, its physical bulk is average and it struggles with Water resists.

Doublade will be a pain but again it’s very slow, gets worn down easily and has bad special bulk even with Eviolite. It also doesn’t like Charizard being everywhere. It does counter Perrserker (unless they start running Crunch).

Guzzlord could be really good. Once it gets in safely, something will die (Sludge Bomb and Heavy Slam smack Fairies) and it can take hits well enough too. It can run physical and special sets, so good luck figuring out what it will do without losing something on your team. I really think this could be broken.

Intelleon - yeah get this out immediately, it’s like if Jolteon and Ribombee actually had coverage and power, respectively.
 
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